Post by Shard on Mar 11, 2018 13:30:20 GMT -5
The Astral - Overview: Planes, Factions, Physics, Reality by Shard
(OGP class on 5/21/2017)
Shard
Ok, so who all is here for The Astral: Overview: Planes, Factions, Physics, Reality lecture?
TehOldeSourcerer
I be here
Rainsong
I am. Always looking to learn more, and actually able to attend. Whoohoo
Eleana
Me
Shard
Always good when time zones cooperate for once, right?
Rainsong
Quite so
Eleana
I just want to know more about it
Shard
Alright, so first off, I will just go over what I intend to cover, and if anyone has any other subjects they are interested in, I will see if I can fit those in.
Shard
Types of Astral Planes, planar density, movement of planes, movement between planes, interaction between a given plane and its inhabitants, effects on magic by planar density, and how beings of different strengths interact with different layers of density
Shard
Types of factions, typical interactions between factions, avoiding being forced into a faction, common traits many factions have, overview of typical large-scale factions
Shard
Alteration of astral physics by planar structure and inhabitants, reality manipulation, folded/pocket/layered reality
Shard
Anything else anyone would like me to try to cover?
Marcus
I am here
Rainsong
Looks good
TehOldeSourcerer
Well if you can distinguish between planes and the mental planes at the end I'd be grateful, heard of those two planes and that they get confused
Eleana
Looks good
Shard
Sure, that one is actually quick and easy, TehOldeSourcerer. The mental plane is purely internal, it is a representation of your consciousness within itself, while the astral is an external (or at least massively influenced by external) reality with practically, if not literally infinite size. The mental plane can be invaded, but only by things that have access to your mind, while the astral is open to anything and everything that has the power to show up. The mental is completely controlled by the person it belongs to, while in the astral the most powerful being typically controls any segment of reality (though there are exceptions)
Shard
Does that answer your question or should I try to expand on that a bit more?
TehOldeSourcerer
Ah that sounds good, I had heard of that and also the mental one as a plane a few layers above the astral
Shard
I wouldn't know on above/below the astral, as it is 'slightly' large to put it mildly, and has many layers of its own.
TehOldeSourcerer
Oh before I forget the astral isn't the only place visited during dreams right? I've heard of it being described as the place all dreamers go to every time they dream
Shard
Ok, so types of astral planes... I've encountered many forms of astral planes in my years of interaction, the easiest way to define them would be 'natural' 'artificial' 'civilization' 'prison' 'fortress' and 'market' to cover the majority. There are naturally formed planes that haven't been developed yet by anything which constantly appear and disappear as the fabric of reality shifts. Artificial planes exist as well, and can be created by any being with enough skill and knowledge (power is not a major requirement) as long as they can locate a stable 'tangle' of reality to use as an anchor. Some areas of the astral act as focal points for discarnate civilizations, often including 'homeworlds' and cities the size of continents or even planets (or bigger in some cases) with some planes being incredibly difficult to enter/exit, which I term 'prison planes'
Shard
Similar to that, you have fortress planes, which I typically work with, a section of reality turned into a fortress, nearly impossible to get into without permission and heavily resistant to outside interaction. The one most people here will have interest in is a subset of the more civilized locations, a 'market plane' which acts as a trade nexus for multiple discarnate civilizations. Typically these are governed by one or more deities, or large collectives.
Shard
Next up - planar density. Related to your question, TehOldeSourcerer, as well. I tend to classify the astral by density, some do it otherwise, so do not take these terms as 'the one true way' or anything like that, please. For dreams, the mind ends up interacting with some of the lowest density segments of the astral. In low density, reality is similar to a light mist or fog, almost effortless to move and shape, but has trouble retaining form. This is why you often hear of beginners to astral projection being attacked by their own fears -- they literally create things to attack them because they are focused on the possibility. This isn't unique to lower density areas, but it is FAR more common, as it is nearly effortless to reshape reality there.
Shard
Typically, very few entities interact with the lowest densities of the astral, you can pretty safely think of them as a wasteland with a few bugs here and there. You do occasionally have the odd eldritch abomination floating around, but chances are you will never find one unless you spend considerable time actively searching for them. I recommend not doing so unless you know exactly what you are doing.
Shard
For denser astral, you can think of it as being more like clay, it takes active effort to alter reality, this is typically where people consider the astral in general, and where most discarnate civilizations are. A single talented mage can easily cause large changes in the mid astral, though it does take serious effort to do so. Typically planes in the mid astral are controlled by a single demigod or far more often a large collection of entities with similar goals (think an entire species and their society)
Shard
One moment, need to use google for spelling
Shard
Ok, so for higher planar density, you get into things like valhalla, the different heavens and hells, the akashic records, olympus, that sort of thing. Typically ruled by multiple deities, or incredibly powerful beings in large number, these areas are very difficult to have any impact on aside from what is permitted by those in control of them. A skilled mage can influence them, but it takes great effort to cause minor changes. Typically you can reach these areas the easiest as well due to the numerous stabilizing influences and well-traveled pathways to and from them.
Shard
Any questions on types and densities of astral planes?
Rainsong
Sounds good so far
TehOldeSourcerer
Yep sounds good
Eleana
Sounds good
Marcus
:thumbsup:
Shard
Ok, next is movement both of planes and between them. We will get into this more in the section on reality, but astral planes are not permanent, and move throughout reality. Each plane requests a certain strength of reality 'below' it to anchor it in existence, and as reality shifts, it can move planes from where they began. Typically, this is not noticed, as few go 'outside' the planes, and if you link yourself to a feature of a plane, you will almost always end up within that plane at that feature. This can be influenced by a mage or other powerful being, which can have benefits in terms of moving aligned areas together, distancing areas from hostile areas, etc. This tends to make many methods of travel between planes easier and safer, though that mostly impacts discarnates, as most human mages can rapidly master teleportation and plane-shifting within the astral.
Shard
As to movement between planes, typically this is accomplished via large-scale magical gateways, teleporters, portals, etc, with more powerful beings simply transitioning themselves from location to location and smaller but highly skilled beings breaching the boundaries of the plane they are in and traveling across the fabric of reality itself to then tunnel into another plane. As you may imagine, the energy required for gateways/teleporters/portals and the like is influenced by the distance between planes to a degree, and can be influenced by things in between. There are other methods as well, which would seem similar to spacecraft or in some cases something similar to the warp from warhammer 40k. These tend to be very dangerous, and most discarnates will chose any other option if they can. There are many beings between planes that are... not healthy to encounter, to put it mildly.
Shard
Any questions on movement of planes and movement between planes?
Marcus
Nope
TehOldeSourcerer
Nope
Eleana
Nope
Shard
Ok, so next is interaction between planes and inhabitants - those who dwell in a plane will naturally begin to adapt to it, and/or alter it to fit themselves better. This is often natural, but occasionally artificial as well. Consider that you have a plane that is permanently hot, lets just say it is like the typical image of hell with lava everywhere, stone above trapping the heat, etc. This will naturally tend towards beings with extreme heat tolerances and possibly even developing magic focused on alteration of heat. There is also a possibility of things such as development of natural reality bubbles (will get into this later) which can create a personal reality that is comfortable even in the worst conditions, though I have only encountered this less than ten times out of hundreds of thousands of planes. Like most things, the easiest solution is typically the one that occurs.
Shard
Likewise, a being can alter the plane they dwell within. Typically this takes the shape of large-scale magic with numerous discarnates working together on a working, but sometimes they develop technology (which due to being in the astral ends up being the Tech we have a channel for) and use that to make things more suitable for them. In some cases, the interaction between beings and the planes they are within leads to natural portals opening to other astral planes, a plane isolating itself completely, 'odd effects' such as weather that drains souls from weaker beings, random energy surges, all kinds of interesting effects. Most of these can be influenced by a single mage in the lower/mid astral as well, for those interested in experimenting with such things, though I do recommend doing so in an uninhabited plane.
Shard
Planar density and effects of magic - in lower density section of the astral, even the weakest spells have massive impact, while strong spells are capable of literally tearing reality apart. It is very possible to literally destroy a plane with a single spell of sufficient strength, even if that is not the purpose of the spell. In the past, I personally oopsed with a simple energy transfer beam tech which ended up acting like a black hole and absorbed an entire lower astral plane. Once you get into high-energy spells, be careful of where you work with them. In mid astral, spells work similar to how you would see them in fantasy, or how technology works here on earth, but with extras. Higher astral typically reduces the strength of most magic to nearly nothing unless you have permission from the forces in control, at which point it can be amplified to unbelievable levels. This is part of why you often hear of asking a deity for assistance with a spell, or meditating/praying to reach a higher state - the higher astral can act as a powerful amplifier for efforts to impact the physical plane as it is very heavily anchored and the laws of reality can be arranged to give you a boost as well if you are in the right position with the beings in control.
TehOldeSourcerer
Not to interrupt but I take it from the influence ideas from the astral have on things here the development of things like guns, swords, computer tech, and many other things could have be based on things from the astral?
Shard
Impact of beings moving through different densities of astral -- You may have heard of deities being unable to go certain places before. This is why. Consider reality as being a fabric or web of massive scale. Density of the weave is different from area to area, and each area has supports based on how dense the weave is. If a spider runs around, it can go nearly anywhere without a problem. A frog or mouse will be able to go the majority of places though in some they will fall through gaps because they can't get enough support. A dog or cat might snap the fabric/web at the thinner areas as they fall through, while still being fine in many areas. But if you put an elephant there, the vast majority of areas cannot support them, only a few little heavily supported dense meshes can withstand their weight without collapsing. From my experience, humans tend to be pretty 'heavy' and thus there are many issues with humans trying to travel between planes 'on the outside' by traveling across the fabric of reality. There are tricks to manage it, but 'by default' you are likely to run into many problems if you attempt that method (which I don't recommend for anyone new anyway)
Shard
It is possible, but it is more likely that our minds simply translate what we see into forms we are more accustomed to, similar to the idea of a weirdness censor. This can also be seen when you have multiple people scan the same object, typically you will get as many different responses are there are people involved, and none will likely be a complete match to the creator of the object. However, most of them will have the same concept behind them. If I make a door-opener, one person might see a crowbar, another a ram, another a robot with an arm that twists and extends, another still might see a box that starts solid and turns transparent. A lot of what you see can be viewed in dozens of ways if not more, which makes it difficult to get multiple people to verify anything.
Shard
So any questions on the astral planes section before I go into factions?
Rainsong
no
Rainsong
(good description about the fabric mesh, by the way)
Shard
I spent a long time trying to find a good way to describe it, the fabric/web was the only one I could find in years that was reasonably accurate on every subject related to it.
TehOldeSourcerer
Correct me if I am wrong but is the issue with magic not being used by much of the population on this plane in large part due to a lessened connection to the Astral? I'd imagine without the large population being aware of it that there is therefore less energy to work with in general
Shard
Personally I think the main issue with magic not being used commonly is that it has been thrown aside as fantasy, and isn't easily measured, so scientists haven't been able to simply whip up machines and experiment with it. We are also taught from childhood that it doesn't exist, forming mental blocks that prevent most from being able to work with it without serious effort breaking them down, leading to short experiments showing it doesn't work, so they quit. The low connection is certainly a factor, but I don't believe it is the largest one. On a related note, I have come to believe over the years that the physical plane is just an extremely dense astral plane of the 'prison' type with a flaw/feature of allowing projection of a lesser self outwards. This can be argued more strongly as most humans are incredibly potent mages once they get a little bit of experience, compared to most discarnate beings.
Shard
Any other questions so far?
Rainsong
Not a question, as such. Just an observation.
Shard
Sure, what is it?
Rainsong
The apparent "lack" of magic generally in our world can also be attributed in part to the laws meant to keep the bulk of the populace in check. Laws against magic have generally had exceptions for the priests and ruling class, after all.
Jaystar2242
So, bit of a late question (more of a clarification and apologizes I was out doing something else at the time.) The reason Deities generally stay around a few areas and use other methods to interact is because most other planes simply can not hold them and start to deteriorate?
Shard
Good point, I isolate myself enough that I never really remember that as I never interact with much of anything.
TehOldeSourcerer
Actually yeah, I'm pretty most religious authorities throughout history have known of how magic actually works and how people knowing it would mean serious trouble for any attempt to control people.
Shard
And yes, that is one of the main reasons I have seen, Jaystar2242, Deities are similar to elephants, very large and heavy, and if they step somewhere, typically it doesn't hold their weight. They can send projections, which are very weak (thought still far stronger than humans) to other areas, but their main 'self' typically stays within a heavily reinforced home plane. Think of the greek gods on mount olympus, for example.
Jaystar2242
Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
TehOldeSourcerer
I have heard of home planes of powerful beings being places people don't visit as their full selves because of it being too saturated with their energy, and thus too overwhelming
Shard
You are welcome, also of note is that deities are not all equal in power - where one can go, another might damage. There are also affinities that influence things - in some places one more powerful being might be able to interact without any harm while a less powerful one might cause damage. It can be quite complex, but I am just trying to go over the basics for now.
Shard
And that is also accurate, most people overload incredibly easily compare to what deities can put out. Even a human mage can put out enough power to instantly overload many discarnates and rapidly overload other humans, so when you consider that a human can do that and deities are far more potent... If you can't withstand incredible amounts of power, it is very unwise to even think of visiting the deity in person. Visiting a projection is what is typically done, even if intending to visit them directly. This also allows them to adjust their output to a survivable level for each individual.
Shard
Any other questions before I move onto factions?
Rainsong
nope
TehOldeSourcerer
Nope
Eleana
Nope
Shard
Ok, so factions. There are a few general types/motivations between factions in the astral. You have some based on goals, such as my faction which focuses on destruction of corruption. You have some that are survival based, typically the groups that dwell in the lower astral or some in the mid astral. Others are based on a religion, which you typically see in the mid/high astral gathered around one or more deities or demigods. These tend to be the most aggressive with the 'join us or die' approach as well, and tend to interact poorly overall, though there are many exceptions, especially as (and this is important) human religions are only a tiny tiny fraction. There is a fit for practically everyone, if you choose to go that path. There are also mindset based factions, such as those who form a faction based on the idea of self-improvement, or the idea that a certain species is better than others. The two most people here will probably interact with most are trade-focused factions, and research-focused factions. Typically, factions interact between one another with similar methods as countries do in the physical world. As here, astral factions have enemies and allies dependent on how they act, who they know, what their ideals are, etc. The typical interactions tend to be peaceful trade, shunning (surprisingly common compared to in the physical) and attempting to disrupt, though active war/open hostility are relatively rare. There are often cases of individuals belonging to multiple factions as well, though many of the religion and mindset focused factions tend to highly discourage this.
Shard
Additionally, many factions align towards order or chaos, with rather predictable results. In some cases, factions do actually work together or even ally with the opposite side of the spectrum, but typically it does lead to conflict. A good example would be demons (chaos) and angels (order) often being in conflict. You then have things like heavy trade-focused factions who focus on chaos (easier to get what you want when you can constantly change everything) working with guardians who are order-focused, though this does take some pretty solid power at the top of the command structure of both to have work well.
Shard
So one thing some people have issues with is factions hunting them down and trying to force them to join. I personally had this problem, and I solved it just about the worst way possible. Do not tell everyone to fuck off and go die, as you might imagine that tends to make them upset. If that happens, instead tell them you would like more information and some time to consider it. If you know any of their allies, mention you are considering joining them and will have to consider which faction to join. As long as you consider for a moment you are not technically lying either, which makes it even more useful. Always try to find things they can't argue with, such as considering one of their allies, or let them know of another faction that is pressuring you and say you can't decide while that other faction is harassing you -- it is quite possible to have factions that are bothering you remove each other constantly while you build up enough strength to refuse them all safely. Alternatively, just find a group you like and fit into and join them. Many factions are not extreme in what they want, and many of them have no problem with you joining and then leaving later. They typically do not go hunting you down however, so you have to look for those, and if you choose to join one, be sure it has the strength to oppose any that are being pushy towards you, as some do not have issues with resorting to force. On a related note: if anyone does end up having problems related to factions being pushy, I can resolve those for the most part as I have enforced my neutrality enough that other factions do not like to mess with mine or anyone I claim is off-limits.
Shard
Traits of common factions - typically factions are mostly composed of a single species of discarnate, though some may be lead by one or more humans or higher entities. Some span multiple astral planes, while others may be within a single larger plane. Typically, each faction will defend its own members against any threat it can reasonable counter, though few will go into active conflict over a single member. Again, think of factions as being similar to countries, and you will have a good idea of how they tend to behave. Typically chaos-focused factions tend towards valuing individual freedom over everything else, while order-focused tend towards valuing the society/species more than the individual, or a goal as superior to all else. Trade-based factions tend to be the most accepting of neutrals, followed by research-based factions. The most dangerous ones, in my experience, are the ones focused on a single mindset, as they will never change their path, merely shed members who change their minds. The easiest ones to interact with are typically the survival or goal-based factions, followed by trade-focused factions. The most dangerous if provoked tend to be the research focused, but it is rare for anything to bother them enough for that, even in the areas where I interact where conflict is far more common.
Marcus
Could an example of a goal based faction be a faction with the goal of achieving immortality?
TehOldeSourcerer
That's a good question
Shard
Overview of typical large factions -- Since they are so common, I will start with angels and demons. Both are more or less identical, they focus on a mindset and goal primarily, are lead by a deity on the angel side, and multiple greater beings (handful of demigods, large numbers below that strength) on the demon side. Both act in the belief that their path will help all life, and neither is innately good or evil. It is quite possible for one to be in conflict with one or more angelic factions without doing anything the average person would consider wrong, likewise it is completely possible for a 'good' person to interact continually with various demon factions. Typically, the demonic factions interact better with survival-focused and chaos-focused factions, while angelic factions tend to work better with goal-focused and order-focused factions. Amusingly enough, neither typically get along well with religious based factions, though exceptions exist (typically their controlling entity is acceptable, others are annoying at best) and other mindset based factions tend to be considered problematic for both. Trade-based factions are quite common and are typically similar to sweden in terms of neutrality and focus of protection and providing services to others, very little I can say about them. Many research-based factions tend to be similar to what would happen if you shoved a thousand mad scientists in a room and told them to have fun, they tend to get along well with anyone who ignores reality/makes their own reality, and like those who experiment with everything. Survival-focused factions typically don't care about much as long as you don't harm them, and are easy to get along with if you help them solve their problems. Typically the survival-focused turn into goal-focused once their immediate threats are resolved.
TehOldeSourcerer
Could the goals of many spiritual groups here on Earth that have the goal of ascending to a higher plane of existence actually be referring to finding a way to completely transport oneself into the astral and thus leave this particular plane behind?
Shard
And yes, that is a very good example, Marcus, another common one is the goal of ascending to a higher state of being.
Shard
And yes, that is quite possibly what some of them mean. That is actually one of my goals as well. I will be sharing my gateway project in the next few days, which is related.
Shard
Any other questions on factions or should I move onto physics of the astral and reality manipulation?
Rainsong
Sounds good.
Eleana
I'm good
Marcus
Go ahead
TehOldeSourcerer
Well just wanted to note that I have heard of the idea of doing what I mentioned without disconnecting from here, essentially physically jump between the two at will is what many groups here seem to be searching for
TehOldeSourcerer
Got sidetracked lol, go ahead
Shard
Ok, so physics in the astral are not set in stone like they seem to be here. Keep in mind: in the astral, personal power can alter anything weaker than itself. Any powerful being will naturally influence reality around itself, bending the laws of physics closer to its ideal. This is part of why large gatherings of entities always seem to be in places with very stable physics, and why deities tend to warp reality any time they appear. Likewise, different forms of astral planes can influence the physics within them. As an example, if you have a plane that was created with the concept of being a fortress, it will typically have an 'inside' and 'outside' with anything going in being subtly influenced to miss or do less harm and things going out being more likely to hit, it will also tend to be easier to mend damage inside than outside, and structures will be naturally stronger inside than elsewhere. This may also be part of the reason why in the dwellings of gods, everything feels similar to the deity or deities that reside there.
Shard
Typically astral physics seem mostly similar to earth because humans are naturally powerful enough to influence the lower astral and mid astral, bringing a bubble of personal reality with us. Additionally, most other beings find gravity useful, and interact with structures they would like to last, so durability and mostly standard physics are common. What isn't typical is that teleportation is possible, invisibility is difficult but possible, you can make things that generate energy from nothing (though that is a bit tricky) and flying can be done through willpower. Typically, you do still have conservation of mass and energy, but those are more guidelines than laws, and there are some areas where they have no impact at all. In some places, the physics can be warped in ways that are difficult to understand, such as a circle up being 270 degrees and around being 410 degrees. Just because things are typically similar does not mean they always are, so be aware of the possibility of everything you know being useless at any point. This is especially true anywhere with a number of eldritch abominations, as they are often very powerful and very alien to our knowledge, that last bit being what they are, literally. In the higher planes, typically physics include things like 'anything offensive in this radius will destroy itself without harming anything else' so you can get some interesting effects as you reach areas controlled by powerful forces.
Shard
The most common physics you will run into are reasonably similar to earth however, but with things like energy to matter being far easier (astral matter, not physical) and teleportation being possible. I have no idea why most planes are so uniform in physics, perhaps a good thing for someone to try to figure out in the future.
Shard
Any questions on that segment before I get into reality both within the planes and outside them?
Marcus
Nope
Rainsong
nope, thanks
Marzipan
Nice
Shard
Ok, moving on. Reality, as I mentioned before, can be easily thought of as fabric or a web of sorts. Astral planes require (to the best of my knowledge, have not found an exception yet) being anchored to a fairly dense mesh of reality. The more 'threads' holding a patch of reality, the larger and denser a plane it can support. The fabric of reality can also be influenced by a mage in order to tangle it, untangle it, add some new threads, cut some, etc. This allows a mage to unravel planes or build support structures for creating them. With practice, you can even generate new threads to add without taking from anywhere else, allowing easy construction and repair. With practice, you can also find the points within the fabric of reality that correspond to an individual being, event, location, etc, and alter them directly from the fabric of reality. This also allows sensing things otherwise hidden, or influencing things otherwise out of reach, though it is very likely that side effects from doing so will impact you, which can vary immensely.
Shard
Related to this, you can destabilize reality, causing it to become less structured (turn from a mesh into a tangle, for our view of it as fabric) or more structured by stabilizing it. With a combination of both of these along with alteration to the fabric directly, it is possible to create a bubble of personal reality subject to your own laws that follows you, though this is dependent as well on their being enough of the base reality 'below' you to hold your bubble intact. If you would like an example, ST_ne_rm-e01 links to an active reality bubble generator. These can be used to great effect by altering yourself or your spells to make use of alternate physics that are not true, then alter reality to enforce those physics, which also has a side effect of making it very difficult to copy your spells by observing them, as well as giving you a huge bonus in defense and surprise because things just 'do not work right' from the perspective of others. One of the main benefits for most people from this is that you can rapidly strengthen your energetic body by altering physics through reality manipulation such that burning out requires dozens of times more energy -- make energy flow more efficiently and you can absorb more energy than you can normally handle and you will still (slowly) adapt to that level of energy, and you will be able to make use of it without harm unless your bubble collapses (at which point you will promptly overload to hell and back in this example)
Shard
So as seen there, reality manipulation bubbles can be highly useful depending on how you think, but they are also huge vulnerabilities, especially if you rework yourself to require them. One way to think of it is that you can build yourself a giant mech, but it has an off button sitting on the outside and if anyone can reach it they can cripple you with ease. There are advanced methods to avoid this, but again, this is just a simple overview.
Shard
Any questions on reality manipulation and personal reality bubbles?
TehOldeSourcerer
Actually I just got a question pop up about discarnates, how are mages from here usually viewed by those in the astral? Is there something in particular to watch out for?
Draco_Platina
You say tangle and structure, but what about just.. unweaving?
Shard
Unweaving is also quite possible, and is in fact part of how you typically produce the useful reality bubbles. Typically for that you have to cut portions of reality to get endpoints you can work with however, which makes it more difficult for beginners.
Shard
As to discarnates views on mages... I'm not the best to ask since I don't interact peacefully much, but in my experience, they see you as your astral form and for the most part do not care about that physical, except thinking it is odd that you are using a projection instead of being there personally. (most don't notice because the projection is a body after all)
TehOldeSourcerer
Cool thanks
Shard
Any other questions before I go over some of the fun stuff you can do with the fabric of reality?
Rainsong
Nope, thanks.
Marcus
Nope
TehOldeSourcerer
Go ahead
Eleana
Go ahead
Shard
Ok, so folded reality - typically reality is something kind of like a mesh/web with things attached to one side of it. If you cut a few threads you can fold part of it back below the rest and re-anchor it. For most of reality, this little segment seems to just vanish, which is a good way to hide a smaller astral plane, though those linked to it closely can still see it just fine and easily reach it. This also allows an easy way to manage the next trick, a pocket. Similar to clothing, you can have a flat piece of fabric, or a small hole with a much larger piece on the inside that wraps around. So long as you find a nice solid anchor point, you can take a tiny patch of it and expand the inside to be very large, allowing placement of a large astral plane in a small area of very dense reality by expanding it into a dense ring anchoring a less dense pocket. This can also be used, for example, to create personal astral temples nearby the realm of the deity they are dedicated to. I actually highly recommend this for those who work with deities, as it gives you a very personal place to meet with them, while also being yours rather than somewhere you visit, and the extreme densities of the reality their planes are based on allows creation of massive numbers of lower/mid astral planes when making pockets of reality, which also do not meet with anywhere near the opposition of creating a plane touching theirs. (Asking to build a plane right next to a deities has been turned down all but once out of hundreds of times for me, pocket realms have only been turned down three times, all by deities who have issues with me to begin with)
Shard
The trick of a pocket of reality is also very handy for hiding things from other mages, especially mixed with the next trick, layered reality. If you can create new threads of reality, you can weave your own small segment and put it either over or under the 'natural' reality. This can be used to cover up a pocket reality, making it appear that nothing is there but empty space, as long as it is woven to the original reality, while being possible to cut open the flap to move in and out. This is extremely difficult to detect, as looking at reality just shows smooth empty space that might have a few ripples or bumps, which is hardly unusual. This is also a useful trick for cloaking from mages - move yourself to a smaller patch of reality 'below' what is natural, then cut the threads linking the two, later on you can just connect it again (though you may end up somewhere unknown, so it is somewhat risky) or you could leave it connected and still be possible to detect with careful searching.
Shard
Also, quick note: using layers of reality allows things like astral planes that completely vanish from existence and reappear elsewhere with no way to track them (as far as I know, I am sure there is a way somehow, but it is far beyond my knowledge at this point)
TehOldeSourcerer
Interesting
Shard
Any questions? I'm out of overview stuff now, finally lol
TehOldeSourcerer
With having reality pockets a thought came to mind: could a mage weave small thread bundles and leave them in various places in the astral and then connect him/her self to them to make something like spy cameras, use them to sense an area?
Shard
Yes, though it is easier to just read the fabric itself (usually safe, unlike changing or cutting)
TehOldeSourcerer
Also, and I'm pretty sure I ran into someone from this at some point, but are there factions specifically made to get mages from here, beginners or veterans, up to speed and basically act as embassies of sorts for those from here?
Shard
There may be, but as a hermit who actively told every faction ever to go fuck themselves, I wouldn't know.
Marcus
Is there an obvious step to take to start to be able to work with these things? "You should learn to see it" or "You should learn AP" maybe? Or "pray" and mentally seek out a group (hopefully on the astral) that's goal is to helping its members to experience the astral in more obvious, concrete ways?
Shard
I'm not very popular, to put it mildly lol
TehOldeSourcerer
Pretty sure I caught insight of one such group focused on those who found out how to completely jump between here and the astral physically
Shard
The obvious step is learning to AP, which is a lot easier than it seems to be as long as you are willing to accept partial projection instead of only full projection - all magic happens within the astral and interfaces through it to reach the physical, as far as I have seen. So all you need to do is pay attention when you do magic and 'pull back' to your astral body instead of focusing purely on the working.
Shard
If you can find a way to move between physical and astral completely, let me know, that is currently my #1 goal. I don't know of anyone that can manage it presently.
TehOldeSourcerer
Yeah it sounds like a very useful skill to develop
Rainsong
Thank you for the excellent seminar, Shard. That is all very interesting stuff.
Draco_Platina
Shard plz
Draco_Platina
join my faction
Shard
You are welcome, I hope it comes in handy at some point. I always hope to see others take this stuff in a different direction than I have, and everyone else has much different knowledge than I do, so good chance of that.
Draco_Platina
I'll bake you cookies
Shard
And nope, I have my own faction.
TehOldeSourcerer
Lol
Draco_Platina
The answer I most often get is, "No. What? No. Wait what?"
Marcus
Yes Shard, thank you very much for the lecture. A lot of information there.
Shard
Heh, I just reject all factions on principle. I am a loner, and I can't trust anything except my own creations. So my faction is my creations, and the faction has allies, even if I don't really.
Draco_Platina
I probably qualify as corruption, anyway
Shard
Nah, you are a hell of a lot better. I'm closer to it than you are by far.
TehOldeSourcerer
Thanks for the lecture, good to get a concise look at the astral. Too often I find that info on the astral tends to paint it in a religious light or focuses on the ideas of a certain spiritual path
Draco_Platina
thread-density is not a way that I've really thought of it, despite self-described threading/weaving.
Shard
You are welcome. I have also noticed that, TehOldeSourcerer, and it has always bothered me quite a bit. I much prefer a simple engineering-style view. "Here is what is going on, now go mess around and make shit work"
Draco_Platina
The amp I came up with ages ago makes perfect sense in that context.
Shard
Glad I was able to give a helpful nudge, Draco
Draco_Platina
Though it makes the objection "no, that would ruin the spell coherence" even more bizarre than it already was.
TehOldeSourcerer
By the way, "astral weapons" as a term I have heard refers to energetic weapons rather than weapons made from pieces of reality yes?
Shard
Typically, though more advanced weapons can be... interesting.
Draco_Platina
Reality is your weapon.
Shard
I have a few that are mixtures of reality, manipulation, energy, and direct will, and no individual component seems like it could ever do anything.
TehOldeSourcerer
It was kinda funny that I got someone super salty over the idea that I made a rapier as an astral weapon rather than something like an assault rifle, when things are so malleable that an "inferior weapon" could very well trump something like a gun in the astral
Draco_Platina
Well... I mean
TehOldeSourcerer
That being a while ago on another discord chat channel
TehOldeSourcerer
Made my day
Shard
Indeed, and armor tends to be better than the typical 'bubble shield' you often see. My most dangerous weapons are needles. And I have things that make nukes look like firecrackers. It is based heavily on knowledge and affinity. Similarly, some people do better with no defense and just healing fast enough to negate everything.
Draco_Platina
I find it baffling that many people even do combat in that context. Punching, swords, etc. At this point it looks like so much LARPing.
Shard
Anyways, I'm off to go try not to die some more. Glad you guys enjoyed the rambling.
Draco_Platina
b.Well.
Rainsong
Be well
Rainsong
Draco: some of it is LARPing
Eleana
I enjoyed the lecture thanks @shard
Draco_Platina
I also feel like a designated area defeats the purpose of a spar. Like, movement is cheating.
Tem
good lecture fam
Draco_Platina
"No, you have to stand there and headbutt my fist"
Rainsong
lol
Rainsong
To be fair, though, it's not unusual to restrict paintball games to paintball ranges/fields/clubs and karate sparring to the dojo.
Draco_Platina
That's... slightly different.
Draco_Platina
To me, it's like saying "Ok, you're not allowed to move from the spot you are standing in"
Jaystar2242
I have some sparring matches with friends and such, it can be fun and it forces you to be creative.
Draco_Platina
I guess I run into issues similar to Shard, but along a different axis.
Marzipan
Good lecture @shard thank you
Xeraxir [Lynxion]
Hmm...one thing about a person's mental plane is it tends to not be 100% under the person's control to the extent that invaders can not make lasting changes there.
What did you mean by "tangle" of reality? Can you elaborate on that and how to find it? Are you referring to threads of reality mentioned elsewhere? Can you suggest some techniques for sensing and perhaps later altering such threads?
If the physical plane is one of the "prison type" then what happens when our physical bodies cease to function? Would we be able to get away from it fully for good or would a part of us always be here?
If you can not visit a deity in person and instead visit a projection due to the power output of the deity, how would the process of safely invoking a deity work from the deity's end?
If spirits in one faction type keep showing up and seem to be attracted to a person who is not aligned with said faction type, what would be a likely cause of that?
I assume that most planes are so uniform in physics because any laws of physics that are established generate a measure of order which itself could in theory help a plane to stay solid and coherent without allowing things outside of it from having too drastic an effect on it.
In regards to reality bubbles, if they differ highly from pocket dimensions, how does one create a proper one that suits his/her needs properly and reduce the potential for it to be altered?
Lynxion: Regarding how discarnates view incarnate mages... Well...they can be interesting, they are mostly harmless and seen as noninfluential until they bring trouble, or do something that disrupts us and our realities, in which case we may take interest, some will see them as a boon if properly influenced while others will see them as potentially hostile and want to keep them from going too far. Most just don't care either way, but we disincarnates are more heavily affected by the presence and influences of people so that is something to keep in mind. ;3
Shard
My apologies if it seemed I meant otherwise on the first point -- it is completely under the individual's control unless something can access it through them. Telepaths, parasites that can link to the mind, etc. Once there is a way inside, there is obviously methods to cause lasting changes but unlike the astral it isn't somewhere just anything can show up unless you put up special protections - it is the exception that something shows up rather than the exception something is kept out.
As to tangle of reality, it is similar to when you take a piece of thread (or multiple) and get them tangled together - it isn't a real mesh, and is prone to breaking or falling apart, but it can support some structure upon it much as a knot or tangle takes a fair bit of force to damage or undo.
As to what happens to us when we die in the physical, I haven't the slightest clue - I haven't died and come back to the best of my knowledge.
Visiting a deity in person takes serious effort, and typically their permission as well, otherwise they simply redirect your attempt to a projection. I believe even when I think they don't they may still be doing so, just using a stronger projection. From the deity's side, they feel a link form, get the feeling of why the link has formed (seeking to meet) and whip up a personalized projection and sub-plane to meet that person with, then redirect the link to the projection and the location (if the individual is teleporting themselves) to the sub-plane. It is actually pretty easy to set up a similar setup, as can be seen here ST_ne_lm_redir01
As to spirits visiting people unlike themselves, many possible reasons there. Sometimes that individual spirit likes the person, they may be interested in potential benefits, worried about a possible threat, have made a deal with another being that involved watching or interacting with that person, or many other possibilities.
Shard
As to the planes and their physics, that is a possibility, but there are also naturally stable planes with physics that basically laugh at everything we are used to, so it may just be a common form of physics and we don't notice the others due to being unable to notice most of them? Kinda hard to tell.
Reality bubbles are different than pocket dimensions in my understanding at least. To me, a pocket dimension is like a small astral plane inside a pocket of reality, while a reality bubble is a fully disconnected and rewritten segment of reality that is anchored to you rather than the reality around you which overwrites the natural physics and other aspects of reality within the area it covers.
And I suppose it does differ depending both on the entity and the person when it comes to how discarnates view mages. I figure I don't have much experience with that as I avoid most contact except with that of my collective and my enemies, so you probably have more of an idea there than I do.
Wayfarer
Generally almost all bigger spirits, deities, demigods, etc. kick you way down the hierarchy to the mooks and answering service. Bigger angels, whatever. You don't talk to big things directly, you talk to their lower emanations.
Shard
I personally haven't noticed that, but I don't tend to interact with deities and the like that are well known or busy at all, I've only had minor contact with anything outside my local reality, which only had a small number of minor deities and no other major discarnates.
Wayfarer
It gets funky with emanated forms because for example if you have someone's emanation or avatar, it's not technically wrong to say you have them, but it's also not technically right - you have an emanated projection of them, or in some cases you have an emanation of them that is distinctly different but of the same "stuff." I deal a lot with contracts and hierarchical systems and the just general bureaucracy of the astral, lots of "paperwork" and so on, and the use of emanated forms is extremely common for bigger things dealing with smaller things.
Draco_Platina
wonders about magic carpets made of denser-weave reality for cruising the loose-weave
Azarea
@shard when you say all the astral planes are tied to/anchored in some way to reality, do you mean the physical reality, or is there a different "backbone" reality of sorts?
Azarea
also, how would one move towards higher astral planes? I haven't had much trouble exploring lower ones, but getting to higher ones without a specific target to seek is hard. Is there a method to this?
Shard
Physical reality is, to the best of my knowledge, just another very dense plane, the reality I mean is the underlying framework that supports everything. As to moving towards higher astral planes, I can't really answer that as I've never had any issues with it, I just end up anywhere I want to be, and more or less always have.
(OGP class on 5/21/2017)
Shard
Ok, so who all is here for The Astral: Overview: Planes, Factions, Physics, Reality lecture?
TehOldeSourcerer
I be here
Rainsong
I am. Always looking to learn more, and actually able to attend. Whoohoo
Eleana
Me
Shard
Always good when time zones cooperate for once, right?
Rainsong
Quite so
Eleana
I just want to know more about it
Shard
Alright, so first off, I will just go over what I intend to cover, and if anyone has any other subjects they are interested in, I will see if I can fit those in.
Shard
Types of Astral Planes, planar density, movement of planes, movement between planes, interaction between a given plane and its inhabitants, effects on magic by planar density, and how beings of different strengths interact with different layers of density
Shard
Types of factions, typical interactions between factions, avoiding being forced into a faction, common traits many factions have, overview of typical large-scale factions
Shard
Alteration of astral physics by planar structure and inhabitants, reality manipulation, folded/pocket/layered reality
Shard
Anything else anyone would like me to try to cover?
Marcus
I am here
Rainsong
Looks good
TehOldeSourcerer
Well if you can distinguish between planes and the mental planes at the end I'd be grateful, heard of those two planes and that they get confused
Eleana
Looks good
Shard
Sure, that one is actually quick and easy, TehOldeSourcerer. The mental plane is purely internal, it is a representation of your consciousness within itself, while the astral is an external (or at least massively influenced by external) reality with practically, if not literally infinite size. The mental plane can be invaded, but only by things that have access to your mind, while the astral is open to anything and everything that has the power to show up. The mental is completely controlled by the person it belongs to, while in the astral the most powerful being typically controls any segment of reality (though there are exceptions)
Shard
Does that answer your question or should I try to expand on that a bit more?
TehOldeSourcerer
Ah that sounds good, I had heard of that and also the mental one as a plane a few layers above the astral
Shard
I wouldn't know on above/below the astral, as it is 'slightly' large to put it mildly, and has many layers of its own.
TehOldeSourcerer
Oh before I forget the astral isn't the only place visited during dreams right? I've heard of it being described as the place all dreamers go to every time they dream
Shard
Ok, so types of astral planes... I've encountered many forms of astral planes in my years of interaction, the easiest way to define them would be 'natural' 'artificial' 'civilization' 'prison' 'fortress' and 'market' to cover the majority. There are naturally formed planes that haven't been developed yet by anything which constantly appear and disappear as the fabric of reality shifts. Artificial planes exist as well, and can be created by any being with enough skill and knowledge (power is not a major requirement) as long as they can locate a stable 'tangle' of reality to use as an anchor. Some areas of the astral act as focal points for discarnate civilizations, often including 'homeworlds' and cities the size of continents or even planets (or bigger in some cases) with some planes being incredibly difficult to enter/exit, which I term 'prison planes'
Shard
Similar to that, you have fortress planes, which I typically work with, a section of reality turned into a fortress, nearly impossible to get into without permission and heavily resistant to outside interaction. The one most people here will have interest in is a subset of the more civilized locations, a 'market plane' which acts as a trade nexus for multiple discarnate civilizations. Typically these are governed by one or more deities, or large collectives.
Shard
Next up - planar density. Related to your question, TehOldeSourcerer, as well. I tend to classify the astral by density, some do it otherwise, so do not take these terms as 'the one true way' or anything like that, please. For dreams, the mind ends up interacting with some of the lowest density segments of the astral. In low density, reality is similar to a light mist or fog, almost effortless to move and shape, but has trouble retaining form. This is why you often hear of beginners to astral projection being attacked by their own fears -- they literally create things to attack them because they are focused on the possibility. This isn't unique to lower density areas, but it is FAR more common, as it is nearly effortless to reshape reality there.
Shard
Typically, very few entities interact with the lowest densities of the astral, you can pretty safely think of them as a wasteland with a few bugs here and there. You do occasionally have the odd eldritch abomination floating around, but chances are you will never find one unless you spend considerable time actively searching for them. I recommend not doing so unless you know exactly what you are doing.
Shard
For denser astral, you can think of it as being more like clay, it takes active effort to alter reality, this is typically where people consider the astral in general, and where most discarnate civilizations are. A single talented mage can easily cause large changes in the mid astral, though it does take serious effort to do so. Typically planes in the mid astral are controlled by a single demigod or far more often a large collection of entities with similar goals (think an entire species and their society)
Shard
One moment, need to use google for spelling
Shard
Ok, so for higher planar density, you get into things like valhalla, the different heavens and hells, the akashic records, olympus, that sort of thing. Typically ruled by multiple deities, or incredibly powerful beings in large number, these areas are very difficult to have any impact on aside from what is permitted by those in control of them. A skilled mage can influence them, but it takes great effort to cause minor changes. Typically you can reach these areas the easiest as well due to the numerous stabilizing influences and well-traveled pathways to and from them.
Shard
Any questions on types and densities of astral planes?
Rainsong
Sounds good so far
TehOldeSourcerer
Yep sounds good
Eleana
Sounds good
Marcus
:thumbsup:
Shard
Ok, next is movement both of planes and between them. We will get into this more in the section on reality, but astral planes are not permanent, and move throughout reality. Each plane requests a certain strength of reality 'below' it to anchor it in existence, and as reality shifts, it can move planes from where they began. Typically, this is not noticed, as few go 'outside' the planes, and if you link yourself to a feature of a plane, you will almost always end up within that plane at that feature. This can be influenced by a mage or other powerful being, which can have benefits in terms of moving aligned areas together, distancing areas from hostile areas, etc. This tends to make many methods of travel between planes easier and safer, though that mostly impacts discarnates, as most human mages can rapidly master teleportation and plane-shifting within the astral.
Shard
As to movement between planes, typically this is accomplished via large-scale magical gateways, teleporters, portals, etc, with more powerful beings simply transitioning themselves from location to location and smaller but highly skilled beings breaching the boundaries of the plane they are in and traveling across the fabric of reality itself to then tunnel into another plane. As you may imagine, the energy required for gateways/teleporters/portals and the like is influenced by the distance between planes to a degree, and can be influenced by things in between. There are other methods as well, which would seem similar to spacecraft or in some cases something similar to the warp from warhammer 40k. These tend to be very dangerous, and most discarnates will chose any other option if they can. There are many beings between planes that are... not healthy to encounter, to put it mildly.
Shard
Any questions on movement of planes and movement between planes?
Marcus
Nope
TehOldeSourcerer
Nope
Eleana
Nope
Shard
Ok, so next is interaction between planes and inhabitants - those who dwell in a plane will naturally begin to adapt to it, and/or alter it to fit themselves better. This is often natural, but occasionally artificial as well. Consider that you have a plane that is permanently hot, lets just say it is like the typical image of hell with lava everywhere, stone above trapping the heat, etc. This will naturally tend towards beings with extreme heat tolerances and possibly even developing magic focused on alteration of heat. There is also a possibility of things such as development of natural reality bubbles (will get into this later) which can create a personal reality that is comfortable even in the worst conditions, though I have only encountered this less than ten times out of hundreds of thousands of planes. Like most things, the easiest solution is typically the one that occurs.
Shard
Likewise, a being can alter the plane they dwell within. Typically this takes the shape of large-scale magic with numerous discarnates working together on a working, but sometimes they develop technology (which due to being in the astral ends up being the Tech we have a channel for) and use that to make things more suitable for them. In some cases, the interaction between beings and the planes they are within leads to natural portals opening to other astral planes, a plane isolating itself completely, 'odd effects' such as weather that drains souls from weaker beings, random energy surges, all kinds of interesting effects. Most of these can be influenced by a single mage in the lower/mid astral as well, for those interested in experimenting with such things, though I do recommend doing so in an uninhabited plane.
Shard
Planar density and effects of magic - in lower density section of the astral, even the weakest spells have massive impact, while strong spells are capable of literally tearing reality apart. It is very possible to literally destroy a plane with a single spell of sufficient strength, even if that is not the purpose of the spell. In the past, I personally oopsed with a simple energy transfer beam tech which ended up acting like a black hole and absorbed an entire lower astral plane. Once you get into high-energy spells, be careful of where you work with them. In mid astral, spells work similar to how you would see them in fantasy, or how technology works here on earth, but with extras. Higher astral typically reduces the strength of most magic to nearly nothing unless you have permission from the forces in control, at which point it can be amplified to unbelievable levels. This is part of why you often hear of asking a deity for assistance with a spell, or meditating/praying to reach a higher state - the higher astral can act as a powerful amplifier for efforts to impact the physical plane as it is very heavily anchored and the laws of reality can be arranged to give you a boost as well if you are in the right position with the beings in control.
TehOldeSourcerer
Not to interrupt but I take it from the influence ideas from the astral have on things here the development of things like guns, swords, computer tech, and many other things could have be based on things from the astral?
Shard
Impact of beings moving through different densities of astral -- You may have heard of deities being unable to go certain places before. This is why. Consider reality as being a fabric or web of massive scale. Density of the weave is different from area to area, and each area has supports based on how dense the weave is. If a spider runs around, it can go nearly anywhere without a problem. A frog or mouse will be able to go the majority of places though in some they will fall through gaps because they can't get enough support. A dog or cat might snap the fabric/web at the thinner areas as they fall through, while still being fine in many areas. But if you put an elephant there, the vast majority of areas cannot support them, only a few little heavily supported dense meshes can withstand their weight without collapsing. From my experience, humans tend to be pretty 'heavy' and thus there are many issues with humans trying to travel between planes 'on the outside' by traveling across the fabric of reality. There are tricks to manage it, but 'by default' you are likely to run into many problems if you attempt that method (which I don't recommend for anyone new anyway)
Shard
It is possible, but it is more likely that our minds simply translate what we see into forms we are more accustomed to, similar to the idea of a weirdness censor. This can also be seen when you have multiple people scan the same object, typically you will get as many different responses are there are people involved, and none will likely be a complete match to the creator of the object. However, most of them will have the same concept behind them. If I make a door-opener, one person might see a crowbar, another a ram, another a robot with an arm that twists and extends, another still might see a box that starts solid and turns transparent. A lot of what you see can be viewed in dozens of ways if not more, which makes it difficult to get multiple people to verify anything.
Shard
So any questions on the astral planes section before I go into factions?
Rainsong
no
Rainsong
(good description about the fabric mesh, by the way)
Shard
I spent a long time trying to find a good way to describe it, the fabric/web was the only one I could find in years that was reasonably accurate on every subject related to it.
TehOldeSourcerer
Correct me if I am wrong but is the issue with magic not being used by much of the population on this plane in large part due to a lessened connection to the Astral? I'd imagine without the large population being aware of it that there is therefore less energy to work with in general
Shard
Personally I think the main issue with magic not being used commonly is that it has been thrown aside as fantasy, and isn't easily measured, so scientists haven't been able to simply whip up machines and experiment with it. We are also taught from childhood that it doesn't exist, forming mental blocks that prevent most from being able to work with it without serious effort breaking them down, leading to short experiments showing it doesn't work, so they quit. The low connection is certainly a factor, but I don't believe it is the largest one. On a related note, I have come to believe over the years that the physical plane is just an extremely dense astral plane of the 'prison' type with a flaw/feature of allowing projection of a lesser self outwards. This can be argued more strongly as most humans are incredibly potent mages once they get a little bit of experience, compared to most discarnate beings.
Shard
Any other questions so far?
Rainsong
Not a question, as such. Just an observation.
Shard
Sure, what is it?
Rainsong
The apparent "lack" of magic generally in our world can also be attributed in part to the laws meant to keep the bulk of the populace in check. Laws against magic have generally had exceptions for the priests and ruling class, after all.
Jaystar2242
So, bit of a late question (more of a clarification and apologizes I was out doing something else at the time.) The reason Deities generally stay around a few areas and use other methods to interact is because most other planes simply can not hold them and start to deteriorate?
Shard
Good point, I isolate myself enough that I never really remember that as I never interact with much of anything.
TehOldeSourcerer
Actually yeah, I'm pretty most religious authorities throughout history have known of how magic actually works and how people knowing it would mean serious trouble for any attempt to control people.
Shard
And yes, that is one of the main reasons I have seen, Jaystar2242, Deities are similar to elephants, very large and heavy, and if they step somewhere, typically it doesn't hold their weight. They can send projections, which are very weak (thought still far stronger than humans) to other areas, but their main 'self' typically stays within a heavily reinforced home plane. Think of the greek gods on mount olympus, for example.
Jaystar2242
Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
TehOldeSourcerer
I have heard of home planes of powerful beings being places people don't visit as their full selves because of it being too saturated with their energy, and thus too overwhelming
Shard
You are welcome, also of note is that deities are not all equal in power - where one can go, another might damage. There are also affinities that influence things - in some places one more powerful being might be able to interact without any harm while a less powerful one might cause damage. It can be quite complex, but I am just trying to go over the basics for now.
Shard
And that is also accurate, most people overload incredibly easily compare to what deities can put out. Even a human mage can put out enough power to instantly overload many discarnates and rapidly overload other humans, so when you consider that a human can do that and deities are far more potent... If you can't withstand incredible amounts of power, it is very unwise to even think of visiting the deity in person. Visiting a projection is what is typically done, even if intending to visit them directly. This also allows them to adjust their output to a survivable level for each individual.
Shard
Any other questions before I move onto factions?
Rainsong
nope
TehOldeSourcerer
Nope
Eleana
Nope
Shard
Ok, so factions. There are a few general types/motivations between factions in the astral. You have some based on goals, such as my faction which focuses on destruction of corruption. You have some that are survival based, typically the groups that dwell in the lower astral or some in the mid astral. Others are based on a religion, which you typically see in the mid/high astral gathered around one or more deities or demigods. These tend to be the most aggressive with the 'join us or die' approach as well, and tend to interact poorly overall, though there are many exceptions, especially as (and this is important) human religions are only a tiny tiny fraction. There is a fit for practically everyone, if you choose to go that path. There are also mindset based factions, such as those who form a faction based on the idea of self-improvement, or the idea that a certain species is better than others. The two most people here will probably interact with most are trade-focused factions, and research-focused factions. Typically, factions interact between one another with similar methods as countries do in the physical world. As here, astral factions have enemies and allies dependent on how they act, who they know, what their ideals are, etc. The typical interactions tend to be peaceful trade, shunning (surprisingly common compared to in the physical) and attempting to disrupt, though active war/open hostility are relatively rare. There are often cases of individuals belonging to multiple factions as well, though many of the religion and mindset focused factions tend to highly discourage this.
Shard
Additionally, many factions align towards order or chaos, with rather predictable results. In some cases, factions do actually work together or even ally with the opposite side of the spectrum, but typically it does lead to conflict. A good example would be demons (chaos) and angels (order) often being in conflict. You then have things like heavy trade-focused factions who focus on chaos (easier to get what you want when you can constantly change everything) working with guardians who are order-focused, though this does take some pretty solid power at the top of the command structure of both to have work well.
Shard
So one thing some people have issues with is factions hunting them down and trying to force them to join. I personally had this problem, and I solved it just about the worst way possible. Do not tell everyone to fuck off and go die, as you might imagine that tends to make them upset. If that happens, instead tell them you would like more information and some time to consider it. If you know any of their allies, mention you are considering joining them and will have to consider which faction to join. As long as you consider for a moment you are not technically lying either, which makes it even more useful. Always try to find things they can't argue with, such as considering one of their allies, or let them know of another faction that is pressuring you and say you can't decide while that other faction is harassing you -- it is quite possible to have factions that are bothering you remove each other constantly while you build up enough strength to refuse them all safely. Alternatively, just find a group you like and fit into and join them. Many factions are not extreme in what they want, and many of them have no problem with you joining and then leaving later. They typically do not go hunting you down however, so you have to look for those, and if you choose to join one, be sure it has the strength to oppose any that are being pushy towards you, as some do not have issues with resorting to force. On a related note: if anyone does end up having problems related to factions being pushy, I can resolve those for the most part as I have enforced my neutrality enough that other factions do not like to mess with mine or anyone I claim is off-limits.
Shard
Traits of common factions - typically factions are mostly composed of a single species of discarnate, though some may be lead by one or more humans or higher entities. Some span multiple astral planes, while others may be within a single larger plane. Typically, each faction will defend its own members against any threat it can reasonable counter, though few will go into active conflict over a single member. Again, think of factions as being similar to countries, and you will have a good idea of how they tend to behave. Typically chaos-focused factions tend towards valuing individual freedom over everything else, while order-focused tend towards valuing the society/species more than the individual, or a goal as superior to all else. Trade-based factions tend to be the most accepting of neutrals, followed by research-based factions. The most dangerous ones, in my experience, are the ones focused on a single mindset, as they will never change their path, merely shed members who change their minds. The easiest ones to interact with are typically the survival or goal-based factions, followed by trade-focused factions. The most dangerous if provoked tend to be the research focused, but it is rare for anything to bother them enough for that, even in the areas where I interact where conflict is far more common.
Marcus
Could an example of a goal based faction be a faction with the goal of achieving immortality?
TehOldeSourcerer
That's a good question
Shard
Overview of typical large factions -- Since they are so common, I will start with angels and demons. Both are more or less identical, they focus on a mindset and goal primarily, are lead by a deity on the angel side, and multiple greater beings (handful of demigods, large numbers below that strength) on the demon side. Both act in the belief that their path will help all life, and neither is innately good or evil. It is quite possible for one to be in conflict with one or more angelic factions without doing anything the average person would consider wrong, likewise it is completely possible for a 'good' person to interact continually with various demon factions. Typically, the demonic factions interact better with survival-focused and chaos-focused factions, while angelic factions tend to work better with goal-focused and order-focused factions. Amusingly enough, neither typically get along well with religious based factions, though exceptions exist (typically their controlling entity is acceptable, others are annoying at best) and other mindset based factions tend to be considered problematic for both. Trade-based factions are quite common and are typically similar to sweden in terms of neutrality and focus of protection and providing services to others, very little I can say about them. Many research-based factions tend to be similar to what would happen if you shoved a thousand mad scientists in a room and told them to have fun, they tend to get along well with anyone who ignores reality/makes their own reality, and like those who experiment with everything. Survival-focused factions typically don't care about much as long as you don't harm them, and are easy to get along with if you help them solve their problems. Typically the survival-focused turn into goal-focused once their immediate threats are resolved.
TehOldeSourcerer
Could the goals of many spiritual groups here on Earth that have the goal of ascending to a higher plane of existence actually be referring to finding a way to completely transport oneself into the astral and thus leave this particular plane behind?
Shard
And yes, that is a very good example, Marcus, another common one is the goal of ascending to a higher state of being.
Shard
And yes, that is quite possibly what some of them mean. That is actually one of my goals as well. I will be sharing my gateway project in the next few days, which is related.
Shard
Any other questions on factions or should I move onto physics of the astral and reality manipulation?
Rainsong
Sounds good.
Eleana
I'm good
Marcus
Go ahead
TehOldeSourcerer
Well just wanted to note that I have heard of the idea of doing what I mentioned without disconnecting from here, essentially physically jump between the two at will is what many groups here seem to be searching for
TehOldeSourcerer
Got sidetracked lol, go ahead
Shard
Ok, so physics in the astral are not set in stone like they seem to be here. Keep in mind: in the astral, personal power can alter anything weaker than itself. Any powerful being will naturally influence reality around itself, bending the laws of physics closer to its ideal. This is part of why large gatherings of entities always seem to be in places with very stable physics, and why deities tend to warp reality any time they appear. Likewise, different forms of astral planes can influence the physics within them. As an example, if you have a plane that was created with the concept of being a fortress, it will typically have an 'inside' and 'outside' with anything going in being subtly influenced to miss or do less harm and things going out being more likely to hit, it will also tend to be easier to mend damage inside than outside, and structures will be naturally stronger inside than elsewhere. This may also be part of the reason why in the dwellings of gods, everything feels similar to the deity or deities that reside there.
Shard
Typically astral physics seem mostly similar to earth because humans are naturally powerful enough to influence the lower astral and mid astral, bringing a bubble of personal reality with us. Additionally, most other beings find gravity useful, and interact with structures they would like to last, so durability and mostly standard physics are common. What isn't typical is that teleportation is possible, invisibility is difficult but possible, you can make things that generate energy from nothing (though that is a bit tricky) and flying can be done through willpower. Typically, you do still have conservation of mass and energy, but those are more guidelines than laws, and there are some areas where they have no impact at all. In some places, the physics can be warped in ways that are difficult to understand, such as a circle up being 270 degrees and around being 410 degrees. Just because things are typically similar does not mean they always are, so be aware of the possibility of everything you know being useless at any point. This is especially true anywhere with a number of eldritch abominations, as they are often very powerful and very alien to our knowledge, that last bit being what they are, literally. In the higher planes, typically physics include things like 'anything offensive in this radius will destroy itself without harming anything else' so you can get some interesting effects as you reach areas controlled by powerful forces.
Shard
The most common physics you will run into are reasonably similar to earth however, but with things like energy to matter being far easier (astral matter, not physical) and teleportation being possible. I have no idea why most planes are so uniform in physics, perhaps a good thing for someone to try to figure out in the future.
Shard
Any questions on that segment before I get into reality both within the planes and outside them?
Marcus
Nope
Rainsong
nope, thanks
Marzipan
Nice
Shard
Ok, moving on. Reality, as I mentioned before, can be easily thought of as fabric or a web of sorts. Astral planes require (to the best of my knowledge, have not found an exception yet) being anchored to a fairly dense mesh of reality. The more 'threads' holding a patch of reality, the larger and denser a plane it can support. The fabric of reality can also be influenced by a mage in order to tangle it, untangle it, add some new threads, cut some, etc. This allows a mage to unravel planes or build support structures for creating them. With practice, you can even generate new threads to add without taking from anywhere else, allowing easy construction and repair. With practice, you can also find the points within the fabric of reality that correspond to an individual being, event, location, etc, and alter them directly from the fabric of reality. This also allows sensing things otherwise hidden, or influencing things otherwise out of reach, though it is very likely that side effects from doing so will impact you, which can vary immensely.
Shard
Related to this, you can destabilize reality, causing it to become less structured (turn from a mesh into a tangle, for our view of it as fabric) or more structured by stabilizing it. With a combination of both of these along with alteration to the fabric directly, it is possible to create a bubble of personal reality subject to your own laws that follows you, though this is dependent as well on their being enough of the base reality 'below' you to hold your bubble intact. If you would like an example, ST_ne_rm-e01 links to an active reality bubble generator. These can be used to great effect by altering yourself or your spells to make use of alternate physics that are not true, then alter reality to enforce those physics, which also has a side effect of making it very difficult to copy your spells by observing them, as well as giving you a huge bonus in defense and surprise because things just 'do not work right' from the perspective of others. One of the main benefits for most people from this is that you can rapidly strengthen your energetic body by altering physics through reality manipulation such that burning out requires dozens of times more energy -- make energy flow more efficiently and you can absorb more energy than you can normally handle and you will still (slowly) adapt to that level of energy, and you will be able to make use of it without harm unless your bubble collapses (at which point you will promptly overload to hell and back in this example)
Shard
So as seen there, reality manipulation bubbles can be highly useful depending on how you think, but they are also huge vulnerabilities, especially if you rework yourself to require them. One way to think of it is that you can build yourself a giant mech, but it has an off button sitting on the outside and if anyone can reach it they can cripple you with ease. There are advanced methods to avoid this, but again, this is just a simple overview.
Shard
Any questions on reality manipulation and personal reality bubbles?
TehOldeSourcerer
Actually I just got a question pop up about discarnates, how are mages from here usually viewed by those in the astral? Is there something in particular to watch out for?
Draco_Platina
You say tangle and structure, but what about just.. unweaving?
Shard
Unweaving is also quite possible, and is in fact part of how you typically produce the useful reality bubbles. Typically for that you have to cut portions of reality to get endpoints you can work with however, which makes it more difficult for beginners.
Shard
As to discarnates views on mages... I'm not the best to ask since I don't interact peacefully much, but in my experience, they see you as your astral form and for the most part do not care about that physical, except thinking it is odd that you are using a projection instead of being there personally. (most don't notice because the projection is a body after all)
TehOldeSourcerer
Cool thanks
Shard
Any other questions before I go over some of the fun stuff you can do with the fabric of reality?
Rainsong
Nope, thanks.
Marcus
Nope
TehOldeSourcerer
Go ahead
Eleana
Go ahead
Shard
Ok, so folded reality - typically reality is something kind of like a mesh/web with things attached to one side of it. If you cut a few threads you can fold part of it back below the rest and re-anchor it. For most of reality, this little segment seems to just vanish, which is a good way to hide a smaller astral plane, though those linked to it closely can still see it just fine and easily reach it. This also allows an easy way to manage the next trick, a pocket. Similar to clothing, you can have a flat piece of fabric, or a small hole with a much larger piece on the inside that wraps around. So long as you find a nice solid anchor point, you can take a tiny patch of it and expand the inside to be very large, allowing placement of a large astral plane in a small area of very dense reality by expanding it into a dense ring anchoring a less dense pocket. This can also be used, for example, to create personal astral temples nearby the realm of the deity they are dedicated to. I actually highly recommend this for those who work with deities, as it gives you a very personal place to meet with them, while also being yours rather than somewhere you visit, and the extreme densities of the reality their planes are based on allows creation of massive numbers of lower/mid astral planes when making pockets of reality, which also do not meet with anywhere near the opposition of creating a plane touching theirs. (Asking to build a plane right next to a deities has been turned down all but once out of hundreds of times for me, pocket realms have only been turned down three times, all by deities who have issues with me to begin with)
Shard
The trick of a pocket of reality is also very handy for hiding things from other mages, especially mixed with the next trick, layered reality. If you can create new threads of reality, you can weave your own small segment and put it either over or under the 'natural' reality. This can be used to cover up a pocket reality, making it appear that nothing is there but empty space, as long as it is woven to the original reality, while being possible to cut open the flap to move in and out. This is extremely difficult to detect, as looking at reality just shows smooth empty space that might have a few ripples or bumps, which is hardly unusual. This is also a useful trick for cloaking from mages - move yourself to a smaller patch of reality 'below' what is natural, then cut the threads linking the two, later on you can just connect it again (though you may end up somewhere unknown, so it is somewhat risky) or you could leave it connected and still be possible to detect with careful searching.
Shard
Also, quick note: using layers of reality allows things like astral planes that completely vanish from existence and reappear elsewhere with no way to track them (as far as I know, I am sure there is a way somehow, but it is far beyond my knowledge at this point)
TehOldeSourcerer
Interesting
Shard
Any questions? I'm out of overview stuff now, finally lol
TehOldeSourcerer
With having reality pockets a thought came to mind: could a mage weave small thread bundles and leave them in various places in the astral and then connect him/her self to them to make something like spy cameras, use them to sense an area?
Shard
Yes, though it is easier to just read the fabric itself (usually safe, unlike changing or cutting)
TehOldeSourcerer
Also, and I'm pretty sure I ran into someone from this at some point, but are there factions specifically made to get mages from here, beginners or veterans, up to speed and basically act as embassies of sorts for those from here?
Shard
There may be, but as a hermit who actively told every faction ever to go fuck themselves, I wouldn't know.
Marcus
Is there an obvious step to take to start to be able to work with these things? "You should learn to see it" or "You should learn AP" maybe? Or "pray" and mentally seek out a group (hopefully on the astral) that's goal is to helping its members to experience the astral in more obvious, concrete ways?
Shard
I'm not very popular, to put it mildly lol
TehOldeSourcerer
Pretty sure I caught insight of one such group focused on those who found out how to completely jump between here and the astral physically
Shard
The obvious step is learning to AP, which is a lot easier than it seems to be as long as you are willing to accept partial projection instead of only full projection - all magic happens within the astral and interfaces through it to reach the physical, as far as I have seen. So all you need to do is pay attention when you do magic and 'pull back' to your astral body instead of focusing purely on the working.
Shard
If you can find a way to move between physical and astral completely, let me know, that is currently my #1 goal. I don't know of anyone that can manage it presently.
TehOldeSourcerer
Yeah it sounds like a very useful skill to develop
Rainsong
Thank you for the excellent seminar, Shard. That is all very interesting stuff.
Draco_Platina
Shard plz
Draco_Platina
join my faction
Shard
You are welcome, I hope it comes in handy at some point. I always hope to see others take this stuff in a different direction than I have, and everyone else has much different knowledge than I do, so good chance of that.
Draco_Platina
I'll bake you cookies
Shard
And nope, I have my own faction.
TehOldeSourcerer
Lol
Draco_Platina
The answer I most often get is, "No. What? No. Wait what?"
Marcus
Yes Shard, thank you very much for the lecture. A lot of information there.
Shard
Heh, I just reject all factions on principle. I am a loner, and I can't trust anything except my own creations. So my faction is my creations, and the faction has allies, even if I don't really.
Draco_Platina
I probably qualify as corruption, anyway
Shard
Nah, you are a hell of a lot better. I'm closer to it than you are by far.
TehOldeSourcerer
Thanks for the lecture, good to get a concise look at the astral. Too often I find that info on the astral tends to paint it in a religious light or focuses on the ideas of a certain spiritual path
Draco_Platina
thread-density is not a way that I've really thought of it, despite self-described threading/weaving.
Shard
You are welcome. I have also noticed that, TehOldeSourcerer, and it has always bothered me quite a bit. I much prefer a simple engineering-style view. "Here is what is going on, now go mess around and make shit work"
Draco_Platina
The amp I came up with ages ago makes perfect sense in that context.
Shard
Glad I was able to give a helpful nudge, Draco
Draco_Platina
Though it makes the objection "no, that would ruin the spell coherence" even more bizarre than it already was.
TehOldeSourcerer
By the way, "astral weapons" as a term I have heard refers to energetic weapons rather than weapons made from pieces of reality yes?
Shard
Typically, though more advanced weapons can be... interesting.
Draco_Platina
Reality is your weapon.
Shard
I have a few that are mixtures of reality, manipulation, energy, and direct will, and no individual component seems like it could ever do anything.
TehOldeSourcerer
It was kinda funny that I got someone super salty over the idea that I made a rapier as an astral weapon rather than something like an assault rifle, when things are so malleable that an "inferior weapon" could very well trump something like a gun in the astral
Draco_Platina
Well... I mean
TehOldeSourcerer
That being a while ago on another discord chat channel
TehOldeSourcerer
Made my day
Shard
Indeed, and armor tends to be better than the typical 'bubble shield' you often see. My most dangerous weapons are needles. And I have things that make nukes look like firecrackers. It is based heavily on knowledge and affinity. Similarly, some people do better with no defense and just healing fast enough to negate everything.
Draco_Platina
I find it baffling that many people even do combat in that context. Punching, swords, etc. At this point it looks like so much LARPing.
Shard
Anyways, I'm off to go try not to die some more. Glad you guys enjoyed the rambling.
Draco_Platina
b.Well.
Rainsong
Be well
Rainsong
Draco: some of it is LARPing
Eleana
I enjoyed the lecture thanks @shard
Draco_Platina
I also feel like a designated area defeats the purpose of a spar. Like, movement is cheating.
Tem
good lecture fam
Draco_Platina
"No, you have to stand there and headbutt my fist"
Rainsong
lol
Rainsong
To be fair, though, it's not unusual to restrict paintball games to paintball ranges/fields/clubs and karate sparring to the dojo.
Draco_Platina
That's... slightly different.
Draco_Platina
To me, it's like saying "Ok, you're not allowed to move from the spot you are standing in"
Jaystar2242
I have some sparring matches with friends and such, it can be fun and it forces you to be creative.
Draco_Platina
I guess I run into issues similar to Shard, but along a different axis.
Marzipan
Good lecture @shard thank you
Xeraxir [Lynxion]
Hmm...one thing about a person's mental plane is it tends to not be 100% under the person's control to the extent that invaders can not make lasting changes there.
What did you mean by "tangle" of reality? Can you elaborate on that and how to find it? Are you referring to threads of reality mentioned elsewhere? Can you suggest some techniques for sensing and perhaps later altering such threads?
If the physical plane is one of the "prison type" then what happens when our physical bodies cease to function? Would we be able to get away from it fully for good or would a part of us always be here?
If you can not visit a deity in person and instead visit a projection due to the power output of the deity, how would the process of safely invoking a deity work from the deity's end?
If spirits in one faction type keep showing up and seem to be attracted to a person who is not aligned with said faction type, what would be a likely cause of that?
I assume that most planes are so uniform in physics because any laws of physics that are established generate a measure of order which itself could in theory help a plane to stay solid and coherent without allowing things outside of it from having too drastic an effect on it.
In regards to reality bubbles, if they differ highly from pocket dimensions, how does one create a proper one that suits his/her needs properly and reduce the potential for it to be altered?
Lynxion: Regarding how discarnates view incarnate mages... Well...they can be interesting, they are mostly harmless and seen as noninfluential until they bring trouble, or do something that disrupts us and our realities, in which case we may take interest, some will see them as a boon if properly influenced while others will see them as potentially hostile and want to keep them from going too far. Most just don't care either way, but we disincarnates are more heavily affected by the presence and influences of people so that is something to keep in mind. ;3
Shard
My apologies if it seemed I meant otherwise on the first point -- it is completely under the individual's control unless something can access it through them. Telepaths, parasites that can link to the mind, etc. Once there is a way inside, there is obviously methods to cause lasting changes but unlike the astral it isn't somewhere just anything can show up unless you put up special protections - it is the exception that something shows up rather than the exception something is kept out.
As to tangle of reality, it is similar to when you take a piece of thread (or multiple) and get them tangled together - it isn't a real mesh, and is prone to breaking or falling apart, but it can support some structure upon it much as a knot or tangle takes a fair bit of force to damage or undo.
As to what happens to us when we die in the physical, I haven't the slightest clue - I haven't died and come back to the best of my knowledge.
Visiting a deity in person takes serious effort, and typically their permission as well, otherwise they simply redirect your attempt to a projection. I believe even when I think they don't they may still be doing so, just using a stronger projection. From the deity's side, they feel a link form, get the feeling of why the link has formed (seeking to meet) and whip up a personalized projection and sub-plane to meet that person with, then redirect the link to the projection and the location (if the individual is teleporting themselves) to the sub-plane. It is actually pretty easy to set up a similar setup, as can be seen here ST_ne_lm_redir01
As to spirits visiting people unlike themselves, many possible reasons there. Sometimes that individual spirit likes the person, they may be interested in potential benefits, worried about a possible threat, have made a deal with another being that involved watching or interacting with that person, or many other possibilities.
Shard
As to the planes and their physics, that is a possibility, but there are also naturally stable planes with physics that basically laugh at everything we are used to, so it may just be a common form of physics and we don't notice the others due to being unable to notice most of them? Kinda hard to tell.
Reality bubbles are different than pocket dimensions in my understanding at least. To me, a pocket dimension is like a small astral plane inside a pocket of reality, while a reality bubble is a fully disconnected and rewritten segment of reality that is anchored to you rather than the reality around you which overwrites the natural physics and other aspects of reality within the area it covers.
And I suppose it does differ depending both on the entity and the person when it comes to how discarnates view mages. I figure I don't have much experience with that as I avoid most contact except with that of my collective and my enemies, so you probably have more of an idea there than I do.
Wayfarer
Generally almost all bigger spirits, deities, demigods, etc. kick you way down the hierarchy to the mooks and answering service. Bigger angels, whatever. You don't talk to big things directly, you talk to their lower emanations.
Shard
I personally haven't noticed that, but I don't tend to interact with deities and the like that are well known or busy at all, I've only had minor contact with anything outside my local reality, which only had a small number of minor deities and no other major discarnates.
Wayfarer
It gets funky with emanated forms because for example if you have someone's emanation or avatar, it's not technically wrong to say you have them, but it's also not technically right - you have an emanated projection of them, or in some cases you have an emanation of them that is distinctly different but of the same "stuff." I deal a lot with contracts and hierarchical systems and the just general bureaucracy of the astral, lots of "paperwork" and so on, and the use of emanated forms is extremely common for bigger things dealing with smaller things.
Draco_Platina
wonders about magic carpets made of denser-weave reality for cruising the loose-weave
Azarea
@shard when you say all the astral planes are tied to/anchored in some way to reality, do you mean the physical reality, or is there a different "backbone" reality of sorts?
Azarea
also, how would one move towards higher astral planes? I haven't had much trouble exploring lower ones, but getting to higher ones without a specific target to seek is hard. Is there a method to this?
Shard
Physical reality is, to the best of my knowledge, just another very dense plane, the reality I mean is the underlying framework that supports everything. As to moving towards higher astral planes, I can't really answer that as I've never had any issues with it, I just end up anywhere I want to be, and more or less always have.